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For six or so months, we were told that
For
six
or
so
months
we
were
told
that
quiet diplomacy, to keep quiet, to trust
quiet
diplomacy
to
keep
quiet
to
trust
that the government are doing what
that
the
government
are
doing
what
they're doing and everything's doing it
they're
doing
and
everything's
doing
it
behind closed doors. Um, didn't see any
behind
closed
doors
Um
didn't
see
any
movement. And to be fair, the the one
movement
And
to
be
fair
the
the
one
thing that really triggered us going
thing
that
really
triggered
us
going
public was the 12-day war. At that
public
was
the
12-day
war
At
that
point, they were due to be moved to
point
they
were
due
to
be
moved
to
Evin, which was subsequently bombed. Um,
Evin
which
was
subsequently
bombed
Um
and we didn't know where they were.
and
we
didn't
know
where
they
were
Quite simply, the government had lost
Quite
simply
the
government
had
lost
track of them. There was nobody on the
track
of
them
There
was
nobody
on
the
ground to locate them. Um, luckily we
ground
to
locate
them
Um
luckily
we
found out they hadn't been transferred.
found
out
they
hadn't
been
transferred
They were still in car park. But that
They
were
still
in
car
park
But
that
period of time of not knowing was the
period
of
time
of
not
knowing
was
the
worst of the whole 11 months that we've
worst
of
the
whole
11
months
that
we've
been endured because you are just
been
endured
because
you
are
just
constantly thinking the worst and you've
constantly
thinking
the
worst
and
you've
got no way of clarifying it.
got
no
way
of
clarifying
it
>> And what's the latest now? What what are
>>
And
what's
the
latest
now
What
what
are
you hearing from your own government but
you
hearing
from
your
own
government
but
also anything from the Iranians at all?
also
anything
from
the
Iranians
at
all
>> I mean from the government side it's
>>
I
mean
from
the
government
side
it's
they've been to court now three times.
they've
been
to
court
now
three
times
Um, both separately, different amount of
Um
both
separately
different
amount
of
times. Sometimes we're organized, others
times
Sometimes
we're
organized
others
will whist away, but we're being told,
will
whist
away
but
we're
being
told
you know, there's this policy to kind of
you
know
there's
this
policy
to
kind
of
sit and wait and ride out the judicial
sit
and
wait
and
ride
out
the
judicial
process. Uh, and at the moment they're
process
Uh
and
at
the
moment
they're
in limbo. Um, and that's how it feels is
in
limbo
Um
and
that's
how
it
feels
is
that we've got two states that are just
that
we've
got
two
states
that
are
just
at stalemate waiting for one to make a
at
stalemate
waiting
for
one
to
make
a
move.
move
>> And you've been able to talk to your
>>
And
you've
been
able
to
talk
to
your
mother though. I mean, what what have
mother
though
I
mean
what
what
have
you been able to say to each other and
you
been
able
to
say
to
each
other
and
what's that been like for you?
what's
that
been
like
for
you
>> Yeah, I mean, so she did a hunger
>>
Yeah
I
mean
so
she
did
a
hunger
strike. They both did a hunger strike
strike
They
both
did
a
hunger
strike
recently in the last couple of weeks.
recently
in
the
last
couple
of
weeks
Uh, and they were at their wits' end. You
Uh
and
they
were
at
their
wits'
end
You
know, it was a big cry for help because
know
it
was
a
big
cry
for
help
because
they'd been promised to be able to see
they'd
been
promised
to
be
able
to
see
each other, but also to call family. Um,
each
other
but
also
to
call
family
Um
and that hadn't happened. And the first
and
that
hadn't
happened
And
the
first
call I got from my mom, spirits were
call
I
got
from
my
mom
spirits
were
very low. You could tell in her voice
very
low
You
could
tell
in
her
voice
she was broken. Um, very, very emotional
she
was
broken
Um
very
very
emotional
and she was on sort of day five of the
and
she
was
on
sort
of
day
five
of
the
hunger strike.
hunger
strike
>> What's What was that like for you to
>>
What's
What
was
that
like
for
you
to
hear that in your mother's voice? To
hear
that
in
your
mother's
voice
To
hear the person that means the most to
hear
the
person
that
means
the
most
to
you in the world suffering is the most
you
in
the
world
suffering
is
the
most
horrific experience I can share to be
horrific
experience
I
can
share
to
be
honest with you. Um
honest
with
you
Um
she's my source of strength of
she's
my
source
of
strength
of
inspiration. Always has been since I was
inspiration
Always
has
been
since
I
was
a kid and and you know for once it was
a
kid
and
and
you
know
for
once
it
was
probably roles reversed. I felt like the
probably
roles
reversed
I
felt
like
the
parent at this point, right, in trying
parent
at
this
point
right
in
trying
to keep calm and and reassure and say
to
keep
calm
and
and
reassure
and
say
keep your strength, you know, and not
keep
your
strength
you
know
and
not
telling her what to do because it's her
telling
her
what
to
do
because
it's
her
own body, but I was very concerned that
own
body
but
I
was
very
concerned
that
she wasn't eating and putting herself
she
wasn't
eating
and
putting
herself
through more
through
more
just move to more turmoil, right?
just
move
to
more
turmoil
right
Because she's already enduring enough.
Because
she's
already
enduring
enough
So, let's bring Richard in here because
So
let's
bring
Richard
in
here
because
obviously you you've been through that,
obviously
you
you've
been
through
that
of course, as well. It reminds me so
of
course
as
well
It
reminds
me
so
much of what you said to me over the
much
of
what
you
said
to
me
over
the
years when Nazene was incarcerated.
years
when
Nazene
was
incarcerated
Talking to her over the phone was a
Talking
to
her
over
the
phone
was
a
roller coaster for you as well. What
roller
coaster
for
you
as
well
What
what do you say to Joe? I mean to deal
what
do
you
say
to
Joe
I
mean
to
deal
with the emotions of his ordeal, but
with
the
emotions
of
his
ordeal
but
also how you how he deals with the
also
how
you
how
he
deals
with
the
governments um because you've of
governments
um
because
you've
of
course been advising him as well,
course
been
advising
him
as
well
haven't you?
haven't
you
>> Yeah, it brings back all sorts of
>>
Yeah
it
brings
back
all
sorts
of
memories. Um and I do remember actually
memories
Um
and
I
do
remember
actually
sort of in Nazanin's case those early
sort
of
in
Nazanin's
case
those
early
months
months
where we don't know what's going on. We
where
we
don't
know
what's
going
on
We
fear the worst. Sometimes our fears
fear
the
worst
Sometimes
our
fears
aren't, you know, it's worse than that.
aren't
you
know
it's
worse
than
that
Sometimes it's better than that. But I I
Sometimes
it's
better
than
that
But
I
I
do remember the coldness of her on the
do
remember
the
coldness
of
her
on
the
phone when she was on hunger strike and
phone
when
she
was
on
hunger
strike
and
how distant and and feeling like gosh
how
distant
and
and
feeling
like
gosh
the powerlessness. What what can we do
the
powerlessness
What
what
can
we
do
to keep her going? And in terms of
to
keep
her
going
And
in
terms
of
advice, I mean there isn't one
advice
I
mean
there
isn't
one
size-fits-all. Um different you know our
size-fits-all
Um
different
you
know
our
journey was our journey. Joe's journey
journey
was
our
journey
Joe's
journey
will be his. But but I know for me the
will
be
his
But
but
I
know
for
me
the
more sunlight there was the more the
more
sunlight
there
was
the
more
the
government justified or had to justify
government
justified
or
had
to
justify
what on earth they were doing 'cause it
what
on
earth
they
were
doing
'cause
it
looked to me for a long time like they
looked
to
me
for
a
long
time
like
they
weren't doing very much at all. Um and
weren't
doing
very
much
at
all
Um
and
it was very opaque language about
it
was
very
opaque
language
about
raising concerns and so on.
raising
concerns
and
so
on
>> And you'd hope the British government
>>
And
you'd
hope
the
British
government
and the Foreign Office have learned a
and
the
Foreign
Office
have
learned
a
lot from your ordeal. Joe, do you think
lot
from
your
ordeal
Joe
do
you
think
that's the case? Are they doing enough
that's
the
case
Are
they
doing
enough
for you to to help you with uh what's
for
you
to
to
help
you
with
uh
what's
going on?
going
on
>> In all honesty, no. Um there's too many
>>
In
all
honesty
no
Um
there's
too
many
similarities to Richard Nazanin's case
similarities
to
Richard
Nazanin's
case
which are for the for the worse. You
which
are
for
the
for
the
worse
You
know, it is that passiveness to to
know
it
is
that
passiveness
to
to
subdue what you're saying. Um
subdue
what
you're
saying
Um
and it's not it's just taking
and
it's
not
it's
just
taking
accountability. I just don't feel like
accountability
I
just
don't
feel
like
that's what they're doing. It's that
that's
what
they're
doing
It's
that
they they themselves are being very
they
they
themselves
are
being
very
passive. You know, they're they've got
passive
You
know
they're
they've
got
two UK citizens that are accused of
two
UK
citizens
that
are
accused
of
spying for the British state, but then
spying
for
the
British
state
but
then
not coming out and defending them um and
not
coming
out
and
defending
them
um
and
calling it for what it is. You know,
calling
it
for
what
it
is
You
know
that's I think the biggest thing for me
that's
I
think
the
biggest
thing
for
me
is that you need to stand up for for
is
that
you
need
to
stand
up
for
for
your citizens. Um, you know, and call it
your
citizens
Um
you
know
and
call
it
out. It's arbitrary detention quite
out
It's
arbitrary
detention
quite
clearly. It's almost hostage-taking at
clearly
It's
almost
hostage-taking
at
this point. Well, it is hostage-taking in
this
point
Well
it
is
hostage-taking
in
my eyes.
my
eyes
>> I mean, the foreign office has said in
>>
I
mean
the
foreign
office
has
said
in
the past that they don't want to give
the
past
that
they
don't
want
to
give
too much and they don't want you to give
too
much
and
they
don't
want
you
to
give
too much currency uh to, you know, to to
too
much
currency
uh
to
you
know
to
to
Lindsay and Craig and and to Nazine in
Lindsay
and
Craig
and
and
to
Nazine
in
the past and raising too much of a
the
past
and
raising
too
much
of
a
hullabaloo about it actually makes them
hullabaloo
about
it
actually
makes
them
makes the other side want to keep them
makes
the
other
side
want
to
keep
them
for longer. Does that kind of convince
for
longer
Does
that
kind
of
convince
you at all? Is there any justification?
you
at
all
Is
there
any
justification
>> Not at all. No. I mean, why why wouldn't
>>
Not
at
all
No
I
mean
why
why
wouldn't
I want to raise the case, right? It's my
I
want
to
raise
the
case
right
It's
my
mom and and my stepdad, and I want them
mom
and
and
my
stepdad
and
I
want
them
home desperately. So, whatever I've got
home
desperately
So
whatever
I've
got
to do to to make that happen, I'm going
to
do
to
to
make
that
happen
I'm
going
to. Um, and the the thing that really
to
Um
and
the
the
thing
that
really
annoys me about what they say in in in
annoys
me
about
what
they
say
in
in
in
that sense is that they're out there. If
that
sense
is
that
they're
out
there
If
they're on charges of shoplifting,
they're
on
charges
of
shoplifting
potentially, that's understandable.
potentially
that's
understandable
Let's see the court of law. Let's go
Let's
see
the
court
of
law
Let's
go
through it. If they've they've been
through
it
If
they've
they've
been
caught doing, they haven't. and they've
caught
doing
they
haven't
and
they've
been accused of espionage, which is
been
accused
of
espionage
which
is
state level political charges, right?
state
level
political
charges
right
They're not spies. It's quite simple.
They're
not
spies
It's
quite
simple
>> Richard, we, as you referring to,
>>
Richard
we
as
you
referring
to
The TV series is out now about your
The
TV
series
is
out
now
about
your
story and Nazanine's uh story. Do you
story
and
Nazanine's
uh
story
Do
you
think that will have an effect as well?
think
that
will
have
an
effect
as
well
Sometimes drama, more than journalism,
Sometimes
drama
more
than
journalism
actually does have an effect on
actually
does
have
an
effect
on
government. And what's it been like for
government
And
what's
it
been
like
for
you to kind of, I guess, relive what you
you
to
kind
of
I
guess
relive
what
you
went through by watching it on screen?
went
through
by
watching
it
on
screen
>> Yeah, it's tough to revisit it. Um, you
>>
Yeah
it's
tough
to
revisit
it
Um
you
know, we all like to remember the good
know
we
all
like
to
remember
the
good
times and and you know, it's tough those
times
and
and
you
know
it's
tough
those
those early days and anyone that's
those
early
days
and
anyone
that's
watched it, it's you know, the last
watched
it
it's
you
know
the
last
episode's nice, but the first episode's
episode's
nice
but
the
first
episode's
full-on. Um, and you know, you can see me
full-on
Um
and
you
know
you
can
see
me
getting a bit triggered by some of the
getting
a
bit
triggered
by
some
of
the
things that Joe's saying, but
things
that
Joe's
saying
but
actually the drama where it's a story
actually
the
drama
where
it's
a
story
comes about very strongly. Um, so
comes
about
very
strongly
Um
so
Nazine, for example, didn't want to
Nazine
for
example
didn't
want
to
watch it. Like I was the one that did
watch
it
Like
I
was
the
one
that
did
the checks to check, you know, how
the
checks
to
check
you
know
how
accurate it was. Yeah, it does bring
accurate
it
was
Yeah
it
does
bring
back some tough times. Um, but you're
back
some
tough
times
Um
but
you're
right that the reason for doing it was
right
that
the
reason
for
doing
it
was
was hopefully as a warning that people
was
hopefully
as
a
warning
that
people
would learn the lessons that that this
would
learn
the
lessons
that
that
this
is what we went through. We went through
is
what
we
went
through
We
went
through
this because the Iranian state is the
this
because
the
Iranian
state
is
the
way it is and it does just take pluck
way
it
is
and
it
does
just
take
pluck
people from obscurity and use them. Um,
people
from
obscurity
and
use
them
Um
and we we did it also because the
and
we
we
did
it
also
because
the
British government in our case didn't
British
government
in
our
case
didn't
step up, didn't protect, and you'd
step
up
didn't
protect
and
you'd
hope there would be uh, you know, a
hope
there
would
be
uh
you
know
a
learning of the lessons. So do do I
learning
of
the
lessons
So
do
do
I
think the government has learned the
think
the
government
has
learned
the
lessons? Well, you know,
lessons
Well
you
know
the government when they came into power
the
government
when
they
came
into
power
made all these promises about how they were
made
all
these
promises
about
how
they
were
going to establish a hostage envoy. They
going
to
establish
a
hostage
envoy
They
were going to put a right to consular
were
going
to
put
a
right
to
consular
protection and um in law so that we
protection
and
um
in
law
so
that
we
would have fair treatment. Hasn't
would
have
fair
treatment
Hasn't
happened yet. Um and it does feel to me
happened
yet
Um
and
it
does
feel
to
me
that that I'm, you know, hearing too
that
that
I'm
you
know
hearing
too
many echoes of our experience in the
many
echoes
of
our
experience
in
the
experience of Joe's family and
experience
of
Joe's
family
and
others.
others
>> I remember Richard, you saying to me, I
>>
I
remember
Richard
you
saying
to
me
I
said to you, how do you actually
said
to
you
how
do
you
actually
cope with this? because you had
cope
with
this
because
you
had
extraordinary courage and great courage
extraordinary
courage
and
great
courage
to be able to actually relive it.
to
be
able
to
actually
relive
it
watching the TV series, but you said you
watching
the
TV
series
but
you
said
you
keep it up until sometimes you go home
keep
it
up
until
sometimes
you
go
home
and then you kind of fall apart for a
and
then
you
kind
of
fall
apart
for
a
while.
while
>> So, so exactly that. I I I mean, as Joe
>>
So
so
exactly
that
I
I
I
mean
as
Joe
said, I I would cope in compartments.
said
I
I
would
cope
in
compartments
So, I'd do this thing. I wouldn't do
So
I'd
do
this
thing
I
wouldn't
do
this. I wouldn't like to watch things
this
I
wouldn't
like
to
watch
things
back. And and that would work for a
back
And
and
that
would
work
for
a
while and then there are days where the
while
and
then
there
are
days
where
the
where the wheels come off and you just
where
the
wheels
come
off
and
you
just
have to accept we're not, you know, we
have
to
accept
we're
not
you
know
we
can all step into battle mode, but we're
can
all
step
into
battle
mode
but
we're
not built for battle forever. And to
not
built
for
battle
forever
And
to
just, yeah, you know, be kind to
just
yeah
you
know
be
kind
to
yourself.
yourself
>> I'm sure that helps, Joe,
>>
I'm
sure
that
helps
Joe
>> massively. Yeah, it does. You know, and
>>
massively
Yeah
it
does
You
know
and
and I think it's it's the right point is
and
I
think
it's
it's
the
right
point
is
because some days I feel like I'm
because
some
days
I
feel
like
I'm
winning the battle, right? And other
winning
the
battle
right
And
other
days I feel like I'm being pummeled. You
days
I
feel
like
I'm
being
pummeled
You
have to be present every day. I let
have
to
be
present
every
day
I
let
myself get upset because they're natural
myself
get
upset
because
they're
natural
emotions. I get I get angry, I get
emotions
I
get
I
get
angry
I
get
frustrated, I you know, I cry. I laugh
frustrated
I
you
know
I
cry
I
laugh
sometimes because I I look at back at
sometimes
because
I
I
look
at
back
at
memories. You I think all of those
memories
You
I
think
all
of
those
emotions are completely normal.
emotions
are
completely
normal
>> And what's the latest about what you
>>
And
what's
the
latest
about
what
you
know from for both of them? They're not
know
from
for
both
of
them
They're
not
with each other, are they? Being held
with
each
other
are
they
Being
held
separately. What do we know about their
separately
What
do
we
know
about
their
health, their welfare?
health
their
welfare
>> Yeah, I mean, so they they did get to
>>
Yeah
I
mean
so
they
they
did
get
to
see each other on Sunday, but when they
see
each
other
on
Sunday
but
when
they
got to see see each other, they're in a
got
to
see
see
each
other
they're
in
a
room which is, you know, um, it's barred
room
which
is
you
know
um
it's
barred
cells, it's dirty sheets, the
cells
it's
dirty
sheets
the
cockroaches in a room. This isn't, uh, the
cockroaches
in
a
room
This
isn't
uh
the
rits or anything like that. So, you
rits
or
anything
like
that
So
you
know, although it's nice they can be in
know
although
it's
nice
they
can
be
in
each other's company, it's not where
each
other's
company
it's
not
where
you'd want to choose to be in each
you'd
want
to
choose
to
be
in
each
other's company, right?
other's
company
right
>> And I suppose the good news though is
>>
And
I
suppose
the
good
news
though
is
that you know it has ended well. It
that
you
know
it
has
ended
well
It
ended the story ended well for Richard
ended
the
story
ended
well
for
Richard
and hopefully it will for you as well.
and
hopefully
it
will
for
you
as
well
Does that keep you does that keep you
Does
that
keep
you
does
that
keep
you
going?
going
>> Yeah, absolutely. It's the hope that
>>
Yeah
absolutely
It's
the
hope
that
keeps you going, right? Is that there is
keeps
you
going
right
Is
that
there
is
hopefully a happy ending, which I'm I'm
hopefully
a
happy
ending
which
I'm
I'm
Yeah, I I I definitely think there is
Yeah
I
I
I
definitely
think
there
is
going to be a happy ending at some
going
to
be
a
happy
ending
at
some
point, but I just, you know, I hoping we
point
but
I
just
you
know
I
hoping
we
can learn lessons and that it isn't
can
learn
lessons
and
that
it
isn't
five, six years down the line when that
five
six
years
down
the
line
when
that
happy ending comes. I'll take it
happy
ending
comes
I'll
take
it
whenever it comes, but I'd like it to be
whenever
it
comes
but
I'd
like
it
to
be
a lot sooner than
a
lot
sooner
than
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