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How are you?

How are you

I'm well.

I'm well

Now, I want to be correct. Right

Now I want to be correct Right

honorable Dame Justinda.

honorable Dame Justinda

It's a lot. It's a lot. Please.

It's a lot It's a lot Please

Justinda. Justinda. Thank you.

Justinda Justinda Thank you

I am referred to as Admiral Stewart.

I am referred to as Admiral Stewart

I will have you know uh how are you

doing? you put out uh your autobiography

doing you put out uh your autobiography

where you talk a little bit about sort

of how you grew up and the challenges

that you faced uh as a prime minister.

that you faced uh as a prime minister

Boy, you got

Boy you got

hit

with a lot of crises as you went there.

with a lot of crises as you went there

You put out a children's book and you

did a documentary.

did a documentary

Yeah. Yeah. That one came a little bit a

Yeah Yeah That one came a little bit a

little bit later. My husband um he's a

little bit later My husband um he's a

broadcaster. Uh and so when I found

broadcaster Uh and so when I found

myself, you know, seven weeks out from

myself you know seven weeks out from

an election, suddenly uh running to be

an election suddenly uh running to be

prime minister, he just picked up a

prime minister he just picked up a

camera and started recording. You know,

camera and started recording You know

we didn't have a set plan for it. Maybe

we didn't have a set plan for it Maybe

it would just be a nice record for our

daughter. But then after I left office,

daughter But then after I left office

um it was turned into a documentary.

um it was turned into a documentary

It's really a remarkable one because

it's

it's remarkable because it's very

unfiltered in a way that you don't often

see with politicians.

see with politicians

Uh you were not

as might be micromanaged here from

certain personalities in the edit room

going, "Don't put that in. No, I don't

going Don't put that in No I don't

want to snap." You know, there

want to snap You know there

and I think that's obvious. It's it's

and I think that's obvious It's it's

obvious by the footage. You know, you're

obvious by the footage You know you're

like, "Why would she have allowed that

like Why would she have allowed that

clip at that angle?

clip at that angle

More importantly, why would she have

More importantly why would she have

allowed her husband to film it?

allowed her husband to film it

Well, yeah. One thing I will say, so

Well yeah One thing I will say so

I've only I've only seen the final

version of it once uh all the way

through, and that was at Sundance Film

through and that was at Sundance Film

Festival. So, it was a very shared

Festival So it was a very shared

experience with the rest of the

audience. Uh and you know, the bits that

audience Uh and you know the bits that

are in there uh it's fair to say don't

include the number of times I told him

to leave me alone uh and stop filming.

to leave me alone uh and stop filming

But yeah, I really

But yeah I really

I believe that you said leave me alone.

I believe that you said leave me alone

Yeah, that was the polite version. Yes,

Yeah that was the polite version Yes

I was going to say, but you know, I'm so

I was going to say but you know I'm so

I'm so glad he persisted because,

I'm so glad he persisted because

you know, there's there's a there's a

you know there's there's a there's a

story I hope that's told which isn't

just about, you know, what's it like to

just about you know what's it like to

lead through a domestic terror attack

and through a pandemic and have a baby.

and through a pandemic and have a baby

And I hope that

all within a very short period of time,

all within a very short period of time

short period of time, 90 minutes as it

short period of time 90 minutes as it

happens. Um, and and I and I hope that

happens Um and and I and I hope that

story is that that there's still humans

doing these jobs and we'll make mistakes

and you know, sometimes we'll get things

and you know sometimes we'll get things

right and sometimes we'll get things

wrong. But we need more leaders who are

wrong But we need more leaders who are

willing to be humans while they're in

the job.

the job

Very interesting. What would that look

Very interesting What would that look

like?

It was, you know, your your background,

It was you know your your background

you know, you have this childhood, your

you know you have this childhood your

father works in law enforcement. You go

father works in law enforcement You go

into these small farming communities in

New Zealand or you go around and there's

the stories are really charming but it's

very clear it informs the humanity of

your

politics

and it's what gets you involved and it's

what gets your party,

what gets your party

you know, uh uh to really tie with the

you know uh uh to really tie with the

Conservative party and then break the

tie so that you end up being prime

minister. But you don't necessarily get

minister But you don't necessarily get

a chance to govern that way because

you're hit immediately with these

terrible crises.

terrible crises

We we were hit with a lot. But, you

We we were hit with a lot But you

know, at the same time, you know, I'd

know at the same time you know I'd

like to think that we still made

progress on the things that really

mattered to us. We still did a lot on

mattered to us We still did a lot on

child poverty. We still put in really

child poverty We still put in really

important climate change law. Uh I

important climate change law Uh I

remember during co you know we were

really worried about the number of women

that were losing work because

particularly you saw insecure jobs which

were dominated by women that were really

really struggling. And so we put a food

really struggling And so we put a food

and schools program in knowing that

right

part-time work would likely support uh

uh women into the workforce. And so you

uh women into the workforce And so you

tried to to cover off one crisis with

another long-term thing that you that

you really wanted to do while in office.

you really wanted to do while in office

So we tried to do both but there's no

doubt it's hard when you're managing a

pandemic when you're managing

you know terror attacks doing everything

else it is it is it is hard

it was also interesting within it to see

the highs you know after Christ Church

your leadership I think was lauded not

just probably in New Zealand but around

the world uh for the way that you

handled it the empathy that you

displayed uh going to the funeral

wearing uh a scarf 10 days later uh

coming up with legislation that's going

to ban these types of uh terrible

weapons which I don't know if you follow

in this country we we've done the same

uh we are uh I think the word is agile

when it when it comes to these types of

things. Uh but to see really your

things Uh but to see really your

approvals and and you're riding high on

that and even early on in COVID and then

to see that turn was really jarring

and and as an individual having

experienced that sense of uh the

headiness of the popularity and then

suddenly faced with you know a woman

right in your face going you know you

how does it feel to kill people during

co I

I think when you're in politics the the

idea that you ever allow this headiness

or this idea that you're riding high. I

or this idea that you're riding high I

I never felt that, you know, because I

I never felt that you know because I

I'd been around politics for so long. I

I'd been around politics for so long I

always held on to the idea what goes up

must come down, you know, and and

must come down you know and and

ultimately whatever political capital

that you might have, you're going to

that you might have you're going to

need to spend it. And you know, though

need to spend it And you know though

the best we can hope for is that

politicians spend it on the on doing the

right thing. Even if it's something

right thing Even if it's something

that's hard, even if it's something that

that's hard even if it's something that

you know might not be popular, just

you know might not be popular just

doing the right thing.

doing the right thing

I see where we've made a mistake. So,

I see where we've made a mistake So

the right thing

Yeah, we haven't tried that one yet. Um,

Yeah we haven't tried that one yet Um

did you in 2019, you know, did you deal

did you in 2019 you know did you deal

with Trump in in the first

administration? Had you had much? I did.

administration Had you had much I did

And did he ever say like, "I think I'm

And did he ever say like I think I'm

going to invade your country." Did he

going to invade your country Did he

ever What What was it like to deal with

him? So many leaders we've seen find a

him So many leaders we've seen find a

way to try and flatter him personally

while doing whatever it is they want to

do otherwise. I remember a lot of our I

do otherwise I remember a lot of our I

mean one of the interactions I I talk a

little bit about in the book and it and

it was a phone call after our domestic

terror attack

uh where a white supremacist took the

lives of 51 members of our Muslim

community.

community

Right.

Right

And

and broadcasted on social med and it was

Yeah. And so we had a we had this is one

Yeah And so we had a we had this is one

of the things that happens in uh in

leadership. you you do contact one

leadership you you do contact one

another and and you pass on your

country's condolences and you offer

support and assistance. So we we had a

support and assistance So we we had a

phone call like that. That was my second

phone call like that That was my second

interaction

and at that time you know I thought what

can I ask

what can I ask of a of a country like

the United States in that moment and I

remember the only thing I asked for was

love and support for Muslim communities

because that was needed.

because that was needed

Yes.

Yes

You don't ask, you don't get I guess but

You don't ask you don't get I guess but

even when you ask.

even when you ask

Yeah.

Yeah

But I mean at that time you know I still

I still find it deeply sad that it you

know warrants comment the idea that you

know mourning with a community who have

lost so many of its members should be

something that you know warrants

conversation.

conversation

But it does now. But that's

But it does now But that's

and by the way on the flip side, you

and by the way on the flip side you

just see we've just had another terrible

uh assassination along with other mass

shootings along that time and social

media. You see in these tribal

media You see in these tribal

communities in these silos the worst of

humanity. It is it reflects and

humanity It is it reflects and

magnifies people's worst

instincts. It's as though they think

instincts It's as though they think

posting is legally mandatory, like

posting is legally mandatory like

that they have to jump in, that someone

that they have to jump in that someone

must know their worst inner thought in a

moment, even if it's going to cause

moment even if it's going to cause

terrible pain to other communities. I

terrible pain to other communities I

imagine you had to deal with

social media companies and all that

because of what happened on Christ

Church was

it was public.

it was public

It was live streamed. It was live

It was live streamed It was live

streamed. If you can imagine an attack

streamed If you can imagine an attack

as horrific as that

targeting Friday prayers to maximize the

number of victims and it was live

streamed for 17 minutes

and what was the attitude trying to

contain that and get it pulled down and

and was there a sense of them saying

yeah we have a responsibility? Yeah, I

yeah we have a responsibility Yeah I

mean this is one thing. This is one

mean this is one thing This is one

thing actually that you can get

agreement on.

agreement on

Everyone agrees that violent extremism

and terrorism in the online environment

is a bad thing. That you can actually

is a bad thing That you can actually

get some agreement. What's difficult is

get some agreement What's difficult is

to get those who carry some

responsibility to do something about it.

responsibility to do something about it

And so

interesting.

interesting

Yeah.

Yeah

You know that video was uploaded uh 1.5

You know that video was uploaded uh 15

million times onto Facebook. Uh once

million times onto Facebook Uh once

every second for the first 24 hours it

was uploaded onto YouTube. It was

was uploaded onto YouTube It was

prolific. It was every everywhere.

prolific It was every everywhere

Right.

Right

Uh so some things have changed as a

result. Some things have changed because

result Some things have changed because

of some of the work we did. But the

of some of the work we did But the

pathways to radicalization have got

worse. And we can't sit by and do

worse And we can't sit by and do

nothing and expect it will improve. We

nothing and expect it will improve We

have to start taking responsibility for

each of our own areas to change what is

that radicalization that is happening.

that radicalization that is happening

You guys did do that. I mean

You guys did do that I mean

not necessarily to look it's very

difficult to design a society

to outstrategize crazy

like that's going to exist but you can

do things maybe

you're not putting that all on New

Zealand. I mean, we can do a lot. We can

Zealand I mean we can do a lot We can

do a lot, but

do a lot but

I was hoping you'd pick up on that.

I was hoping you'd pick up on that

Uh, it's your fault for burying the ring

Uh it's your fault for burying the ring

there. The ring

there The ring

is what's causing a lot of this.

is what's causing a lot of this

I find it people go,

I find it people go

it often comes back to that. I find,

it often comes back to that I find

by the way, I want to point out, so I

by the way I want to point out so I

went to say hello before the show and it

was lovely. And you have a an enormous

was lovely And you have a an enormous

in her dressing room an enormous I guess

posy you'd call it. Uh you roll there's

posy you'd call it Uh you roll there's

two of them.

two of them

No,

but let's be honest. You roll like

but let's be honest You roll like

Snoop.

Snoop

Uh but she had laid out a lovely display

of New Zealand chocolates

uh on a plate. The uh what is the name

uh on a plate The uh what is the name

of the chocolate? I think you're

of the chocolate I think you're

Oh, for God's sakes.

Oh for God's sakes

Uh Whitaker's Hookie Pokey.

Uh Whitaker's Hookie Pokey

So I walk in and she has a full display

of Whitaker's hokeyp pokey.

of Whitaker's hokeyp pokey

I could have put the whole block. It

I could have put the whole block It

would have melted in my my trousers. But

would have melted in my my trousers But

I did bring

and it was I and I have to say

delicious. But I didn't know if that if

delicious But I didn't know if that if

I was supposed to say like, "Wow, New

I was supposed to say like Wow New

Zealand. Nice."

Zealand Nice

Could you just say that directly down?

Could you just say that directly down

Wow. New Zealand.

Wow New Zealand

Great chocolate.

Great chocolate

Thank you.

Thank you

Thank you.

Thank you

I I am curious because I think we view,

I I am curious because I think we view

you know, New Zealand as kind of a a a

you know New Zealand as kind of a a a

refuge. And

refuge And

when you view what's happening in the

United States, does it seem surreal,

United States does it seem surreal

shocking, expected? M

shocking expected M

what's your vision on on kind of how our

politics

is is move the direction it's moving in

I don't think you're alone you know I

don't think you're alone there's a

globalization

of political culture and and I think

different nations are feeling it to to

different degrees but there's a global

survey done by Edelman it's a trust

barometer and what they've seen across

countries is an increase in the

grievance people feel

they feel that political institutions

ions are not only not making their lives

better, they're making them harder.

better they're making them harder

61%

of people feel that way.

of people feel that way

This is worldwide.

This is worldwide

This is worldwide. This is a this is a

This is worldwide This is a this is a

global survey. And then as a

global survey And then as a

consequence, four out of 10 think

consequence four out of 10 think

hostile action is justified because of

it. you know, hostile action,

it you know hostile action

hostile action, spreading disinformation

hostile action spreading disinformation

or, you know, you know, violent online

or you know you know violent online

engagement or, you know, even

engagement or you know even

vandalizing public property, you know.

vandalizing public property you know

So,

in order to solve this second because

political violence is never okay and

disinformation solves nothing. In order

disinformation solves nothing In order

to solve that, we also have to think

to solve that we also have to think

about what's causing people's grievance

in the first place.

in the first place

Right? And that's where as political

Right And that's where as political

leaders we have to take responsibility.

leaders we have to take responsibility

The easiest trick is to weaponize fear

and blame. But that is what leaves us.

and blame But that is what leaves us

Well, that's the way it it's uh to quote

Well that's the way it it's uh to quote

uh Yoda. Uh

uh Yoda Uh

I believe that may lead to the dark

side.

side

Well, in in my view, I mean, does it

Well in in my view I mean does it

leave our societies and our communities

better or worse off? I think that answer

better or worse off I think that answer

is obvious. But do you wonder sometimes

is obvious But do you wonder sometimes

is that even the goal anymore? Because I

is that even the goal anymore Because I

wonder as I watch the political system

and I think are they cynically using uh

fear and weaponizing it. Is power really

fear and weaponizing it Is power really

the principle that that they're

pursuing? Because that you could make

pursuing Because that you could make

the case that it's divorced from outcome

that it's really just a tool to allow

them to consolidate power. Well, then I

them to consolidate power Well then I

guess it depends what you think the

definition of power is. What is power in

definition of power is What is power in

my mind? It's responsibility.

my mind It's responsibility

Yeah, that's not their definition.

Yeah that's not their definition

Let me go back to

I've got my notes here. Do the right

I've got my notes here Do the right

thing.

thing

[Laughter]

Laughter

No. Uh but that that's exactly right. In

No Uh but that that's exactly right In

your experience,

your experience

is it we live in a complex ecosystem. Is

is it we live in a complex ecosystem Is

it some combination of sort of these the

more online that we might live the

isolation people felt from COVID, the

isolation people felt from COVID the

pandemic's you know residual

effects kind of knocking us a bit off of

our center.

our center

Yeah.

Yeah

And that this is a cycle that we find

ourselves in that's going to be

difficult to unwind.

difficult to unwind

I think so. Right.

I think so Right

I think so. And I think

I think so And I think

what are some of the things that you

would look at to to help unwind?

would look at to to help unwind

Well, in my mind, the part of the

Well in my mind the part of the

prescription is the type of leadership

we have. You know in these times when

we have You know in these times when

people do have a sense of uncertainty

and fear comes out of a sense of

uncertainty when they have financial

insecurity and that is also a feature I

think we see globally when you have

those things leadership matters and the

US has has been in times that I imagine

would have felt as difficult as this

before the aftermath of a war a pandemic

in 1918 and then the great depression

sure world and your leader was FDR

a great empathetic leader who didn't use

fear and blame but instead

he didn't he didn't turn the Japanese

for you know I I guess the point is like

we we do it we have we have a no I just

I don't know I don't know where you go

after that like

the point is we we have a sometimes a

nostalgia for history that doesn't allow

us to judge ourselves properly and it's

why it's so difficult that

right now when we look and we say like

gosh we tell such a bad story about

slavery. We should really lighten that

slavery We should really lighten that

up. You know, countries that can that

up You know countries that can that

can face their own dark histories have

an opportunity to to make those to make

those reforms

and acknowledging your history and

acknowledging your history. And of

acknowledging your history And of

course, New Zealand has a has has a lot

course New Zealand has a has has a lot

to acknowledge. Acknowledging your

to acknowledge Acknowledging your

history is not an unpatriotic act. It's

history is not an unpatriotic act It's

a way of saying I love my country and I

know it can be better.

know it can be better

You're good.

You're good

But

the point I was trying to make before

you brutally derailed it was

was that empathetic and right in these

times.

times

Yes.

Yes

My view the answer is empathetic

leadership. It takes courage to be

leadership It takes courage to be

empathetic in these times. It is a

empathetic in these times It is a

courageous act to be optimistic in these

times. But we need more of it not less.

times But we need more of it not less

Abs. Have you seen is there a leader out

Abs Have you seen is there a leader out

there that you see on the world stage

and you think boy that's something

that's the seed of something really

interesting really beautiful really

coming together

well two well two things I think the

president of Mexico is governing through

really difficult times but doing so with

dignity integrity

I think that it's really interesting

that on two recent election nights prime

ministers who won office used their

election night victory speeches to talk

about kindness and that was Mark Carney

in Canada and Anthony Albanese in

Australia. When why aren't we talking

Australia When why aren't we talking

about that? Why aren't we talking about

about that Why aren't we talking about

those examples where leaders are saying

these are values that matter? So let's

these are values that matter So let's

talk about those that are being a little

more optimistic in these dark times

rather than some others.

rather than some others

Right.

Right

Absolutely. Uh well it's fantastic. Uh

Absolutely Uh well it's fantastic Uh

you're going to be teaching that now. Am

you're going to be teaching that now Am

I correct? You are teaching empathetic

I correct You are teaching empathetic

leadership.

leadership

I Yes. I've I've built a something

I Yes I've I've built a something

called the field fellowship. It's

called the field fellowship It's

supporting politicians still out there

doing the hard graph leading with

compassion. So I have a program to

compassion So I have a program to

support their work they're doing and try

and spotlight some of their work.

and spotlight some of their work

It's fantastic. Is there any

It's fantastic Is there any

consideration? You're uh still very very

consideration You're uh still very very

young. To be eligible to be president of

young To be eligible to be president of

the United States, you have to be uh

the United States you have to be uh

from what I understand 90. Uh,

from what I understand 90 Uh

is there is there any chance you reenter

a a political arena at some point or is

that a part of your life that you you'd

like to move past it?

like to move past it

I'm very happy as just solely an

ambassador for New Zealand's chocolate.

ambassador for New Zealand's chocolate

It's very good. The chocolate. Uh, the

It's very good The chocolate Uh the

HBO documentary film Prime Minister. It

HBO documentary film Prime Minister It

debuts September 30th. Children's book

debuts September 30th Children's book

Tom's Busy Works available now. Dave

Tom's Busy Works available now Dave

Justinda Arthur.

Justinda Arthur

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