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What would you say is the most difficult
What
would
you
say
is
the
most
difficult
part of teaching a child or raising a
part
of
teaching
a
child
or
raising
a
child to be a feminist?
child
to
be
a
feminist
You know it's not that it's..it's easy to do
You
know
it's
not
that
it'sit's
easy
to
do
but you have to fight against, it feels like the universe
but
you
have
to
fight
against
it
feels
like
the
universe
has a conspiracy against you. So you, you
has
a
conspiracy
against
you
So
you
you
tell your child, you know, you don't have
tell
your
child
you
know
you
don't
have
to play with dolls but then you go to
to
play
with
dolls
but
then
you
go
to
the store and the girls sections are
the
store
and
the
girls
sections
are
just dolls. Right. And you know there's
just
dolls
Right
And
you
know
there's
still very much that that blue and pink
still
very
much
that
that
blue
and
pink
binary in the world. Like you're trying to
binary
in
the
world
Like
you're
trying
to
teach your child that you know, you can
teach
your
child
that
you
know
you
can
be whoever you want to be. So it can feel
be
whoever
you
want
to
be
So
it
can
feel
as though there's a lot that you need to
as
though
there's
a
lot
that
you
need
to
push back. Right. right. You know from the
push
back
Right
right
You
know
from
the
world,
world
but but it's doable. I'm. I'm very
but
but
it's
doable
I'm
I'm
very
optimistic about how we can change the world.
optimistic
about
how
we
can
change
the
world
What I've always admired about
What
I've
always
admired
about
your your words on feminism is that you
your
your
words
on
feminism
is
that
you
you don't seem to live in a world where
you
don't
seem
to
live
in
a
world
where
it's abstract or it's just extreme. Like
it's
abstract
or
it's
just
extreme
Like
it never seems to me like you talk about
it
never
seems
to
me
like
you
talk
about
feminism. Like it's, like this is how it
feminism
Like
it's
like
this
is
how
it
is and it's, it's, that is the way it is.
is
and
it's
it's
that
is
the
way
it
is
Like in the in the book for instance
Like
in
the
in
the
book
for
instance
there are some suggestions where you
there
are
some
suggestions
where
you
talk about how you can encourage your
talk
about
how
you
can
encourage
your
daughter if she's a daughter to be
daughter
if
she's
a
daughter
to
be
anything she wants to be to like blue to
anything
she
wants
to
be
to
like
blue
to
play with boys toys etc but that
play
with
boys
toys
etc
but
that
shouldn't mean that she should shun her
shouldn't
mean
that
she
should
shun
her
femininity. That's not what feminism is.
femininity
That's
not
what
feminism
is
Yeah. So when people find themselves
Yeah
So
when
people
find
themselves
caught up in a conundrum with feminism
caught
up
in
a
conundrum
with
feminism
like what is the one thing they could
like
what
is
the
one
thing
they
could
say to themselves that just makes it
say
to
themselves
that
just
makes
it
easier to understand?
easier
to
understand
Um,
Um
think of yourself as an individual. Right.
think
of
yourself
as
an
individual
Right
Right. There's no, I mean I think feminism
Right
There's
no
I
mean
I
think
feminism
and femininity are not mutually exclusive
and
femininity
are
not
mutually
exclusive
right I think that the early
right
I
think
that
the
early
feminists in the West
feminists
in
the
West
shunned femininity because femininity
shunned
femininity
because
femininity
had for so long been used as a way to
had
for
so
long
been
used
as
a
way
to
put them down. So women were property.
put
them
down
So
women
were
property
You're supposed to look pretty and stay
You're
supposed
to
look
pretty
and
stay
at home. So I think when women started to
at
home
So
I
think
when
women
started
to
push back against that they were like we
push
back
against
that
they
were
like
we
don't want pretty
don't
want
pretty
but I think now we've come to a stage
but
I
think
now
we've
come
to
a
stage
where we can accept that people can be
where
we
can
accept
that
people
can
be
many things. Right. You can be feminine
many
things
Right
You
can
be
feminine
and feminist. It depends on whether you
and
feminist
It
depends
on
whether
you
want to be. The problem is if somebody is
want
to
be
The
problem
is
if
somebody
is
pushing you to be what you don't want to
pushing
you
to
be
what
you
don't
want
to
be then that's not feminism. Right. So, so,
be
then
that's
not
feminism
Right
So
so
I usually say to women who are thinking
I
usually
say
to
women
who
are
thinking
about it just think of your your
about
it
just
think
of
your
your
individual self, right. What do you like
individual
self
right
What
do
you
like
and is that thing causing you harm? Right.
and
is
that
thing
causing
you
harm
Right
Is it, is it somehow is it reducing your
Is
it
is
it
somehow
is
it
reducing
your
spirit? Is it making you resentful
spirit
Is
it
making
you
resentful
because I think that when there's really
because
I
think
that
when
there's
really
equality, resentment will not exist. Right.
equality
resentment
will
not
exist
Right
In relationships where people are
In
relationships
where
people
are
unhappy because there's a gender problem.
unhappy
because
there's
a
gender
problem
Yes. There's resentment.
Yes
There's
resentment
If there isn't a problem you just you
If
there
isn't
a
problem
you
just
you
don't have resentment. You kind of know.
don't
have
resentment
You
kind
of
know
It's intuitive, I think. Right would you
It's
intuitive
I
think
Right
would
you
say then it's still possible for a woman,
say
then
it's
still
possible
for
a
woman
I mean I know my mom always says this to
I
mean
I
know
my
mom
always
says
this
to
me, but some people struggle with the
me
but
some
people
struggle
with
the
concept would you say it's possible for
concept
would
you
say
it's
possible
for
a woman to say I am I'm a feminist I
a
woman
to
say
I
am
I'm
a
feminist
I
believe in equality but I still want a
believe
in
equality
but
I
still
want
a
man to open the door for me. I I like
man
to
open
the
door
for
me
I
I
like
that gesture or is that problematic in of itself.
that
gesture
or
is
that
problematic
in
of
itself
You know the thing about, by
You
know
the
thing
about
by
the way your mother is wonderful. Just
the
way
your
mother
is
wonderful
Just
from reading your book. Thank you. You're
from
reading
your
book
Thank
you
You're
so fortunate to have been raised by her.
so
fortunate
to
have
been
raised
by
her
Trevor I'm serious. I
Trevor
I'm
serious
I
I think everything good in you is because your mother raised you.
I
think
everything
good
in
you
is
because
your
mother
raised
you
You know what's funny..
You
know
what's
funny
oh no I I appreciate that but it and the
oh
no
I
I
appreciate
that
but
it
and
the
way you said it is it's a beautiful
way
you
said
it
is
it's
a
beautiful
compliment that sounds like an insult.
compliment
that
sounds
like
an
insult
You know it's just like everything good
You
know
it's
just
like
everything
good
in yours from your mom the rest of that shit
in
yours
from
your
mom
the
rest
of
that
shit
is you, that's you and your dad, but
is
you
that's
you
and
your
dad
but
yeah but thank you but, but.. how do you
yeah
but
thank
you
but
but
how
do
you
respond to that to that idea?
respond
to
that
to
that
idea
I think I think just just like holding the door
I
think
I
think
just
just
like
holding
the
door
shouldn't be gendered. I think it's a
shouldn't
be
gendered
I
think
it's
a
lovely thing to hold the door but we
lovely
thing
to
hold
the
door
but
we
should hold the door for everyone. Right.
should
hold
the
door
for
everyone
Right
Right. I hold the door for men. Right. And
Right
I
hold
the
door
for
men
Right
And
women.
women
Um, so I think the idea of sort of
Um
so
I
think
the
idea
of
sort
of
holding the door for a woman because
holding
the
door
for
a
woman
because
she's a woman, I have trouble with it.
she's
a
woman
I
have
trouble
with
it
I'm quite happy for people to hold the door
I'm
quite
happy
for
people
to
hold
the
door
for me but I hope they're not doing it
for
me
but
I
hope
they're
not
doing
it
because of this sort of idea of chivalry
because
of
this
sort
of
idea
of
chivalry
because chivalry is really about the
because
chivalry
is
really
about
the
idea that women are somehow weak. Right,
idea
that
women
are
somehow
weak
Right
right. And need protecting but we know
right
And
need
protecting
but
we
know
that really there are many women who are
that
really
there
are
many
women
who
are
stronger than many men. Right, right.
stronger
than
many
men
Right
right
So really, what I think is that the people
So
really
what
I
think
is
that
the
people
we should protect are people who need
we
should
protect
are
people
who
need
protecting, whether men or women,
protecting
whether
men
or
women
Which is also why I sort of have trouble
Which
is
also
why
I
sort
of
have
trouble
with the idea of women and children. When
with
the
idea
of
women
and
children
When
women are classified in the same.. you
women
are
classified
in
the
same
you
know when, when there's a tragedy and we
know
when
when
there's
a
tragedy
and
we
say women and children should leave
say
women
and
children
should
leave
first? I think actually it's the people
first
I
think
actually
it's
the
people
who are weak, unwell, you know?
who
are
weak
unwell
you
know
That's interesting. Who should
That's
interesting
Who
should
leave first. Yeah, wow. This is like a more
leave
first
Yeah
wow
This
is
like
a
more
eloquent argument of what some of the
eloquent
argument
of
what
some
of
the
guys on the Titanic said.
guys
on
the
Titanic
said
[Laughter]
Laughter
Chimawanda would want me to leave! If women and children stay behind but
Chimawanda
would
want
me
to
leave
If
women
and
children
stay
behind
but
but I I really do understand what you're
but
I
I
really
do
understand
what
you're
saying. Here there's a fascinating, um,
saying
Here
there's
a
fascinating
um
passage in the book and this was, it's
passage
in
the
book
and
this
was
it's
called the seventh suggestion and in
called
the
seventh
suggestion
and
in
this it's, um the line the paragraph that
this
it's
um
the
line
the
paragraph
that
starts with them never speak of marriage
starts
with
them
never
speak
of
marriage
as an achievement. And then when we skip
as
an
achievement
And
then
when
we
skip
forward it says when Hillary Clinton was
forward
it
says
when
Hillary
Clinton
was
running for president of the United
running
for
president
of
the
United
States the first descriptor on her
States
the
first
descriptor
on
her
Twitter account was wife.
Twitter
account
was
wife
The first descriptor on the Twitter
The
first
descriptor
on
the
Twitter
account of Bill Clinton her husband is
account
of
Bill
Clinton
her
husband
is
founder not husband
founder
not
husband
because of this I have an unreasonable
because
of
this
I
have
an
unreasonable
affection for the very few men who use
affection
for
the
very
few
men
who
use
husband as their first descriptor.
husband
as
their
first
descriptor
Do you think in, in that moment it made you feel
Do
you
think
in
in
that
moment
it
made
you
feel
like uh, in society we've created a world
like
uh
in
society
we've
created
a
world
where the best thing you can be as a
where
the
best
thing
you
can
be
as
a
woman sometimes is a wife to a man but a
woman
sometimes
is
a
wife
to
a
man
but
a
man can have every other achievement?
man
can
have
every
other
achievement
Was that the problem with that idea for
Was
that
the
problem
with
that
idea
for
yourself? Yes, yes but it's also the
yourself
Yes
yes
but
it's
also
the
larger question of what we expect of
larger
question
of
what
we
expect
of
women in public life and why I think
women
in
public
life
and
why
I
think
that there are many people for whom
that
there
are
many
people
for
whom
Hillary Clinton is not relatable. Right.
Hillary
Clinton
is
not
relatable
Right
Unless she primarily defines herself in
Unless
she
primarily
defines
herself
in
domestic terms wife, mother but wife in
domestic
terms
wife
mother
but
wife
in
particular right because I think it
particular
right
because
I
think
it
makes people feel comfortable, I think
makes
people
feel
comfortable
I
think
people are very, um people don't know
people
are
very
um
people
don't
know
what to do with the idea of a woman who
what
to
do
with
the
idea
of
a
woman
who
has power or who's seeking power and so
has
power
or
who's
seeking
power
and
so
the way to somehow temper that is to say well wife.
the
way
to
somehow
temper
that
is
to
say
well
wife
I'm a wife so therefore I'm
I'm
a
wife
so
therefore
I'm
not that scary. Right. And it's not, I mean
not
that
scary
Right
And
it's
not
I
mean
obviously I think marriage is a
obviously
I
think
marriage
is
a
wonderful thing and it can be, you know
wonderful
thing
and
it
can
be
you
know
just such a joy and all of that but it's
just
such
a
joy
and
all
of
that
but
it's
that we raise girls to aspire to marriage in
that
we
raise
girls
to
aspire
to
marriage
in
a way we don't raise boys too and I
a
way
we
don't
raise
boys
too
and
I
think there's a problem with that. So you
think
there's
a
problem
with
that
So
you
have little girls who from very early on
have
little
girls
who
from
very
early
on
are thinking about the wedding dress
are
thinking
about
the
wedding
dress
right, I don't know how many boys think
right
I
don't
know
how
many
boys
think
about the wedding tuxedos. Right. Not at
about
the
wedding
tuxedos
Right
Not
at
all. Yeah that's true. So what it means is
all
Yeah
that's
true
So
what
it
means
is
that there's there's an immediate
that
there's
there's
an
immediate
imbalance I think right. In just the idea
imbalance
I
think
right
In
just
the
idea
of what is aspirational and so I think
of
what
is
aspirational
and
so
I
think
what we should do is in raising boys and
what
we
should
do
is
in
raising
boys
and
girls teach them that love is wonderful.
girls
teach
them
that
love
is
wonderful
Marriage is wonderful but none of that
Marriage
is
wonderful
but
none
of
that
is something that one should aspire to.
is
something
that
one
should
aspire
to
Right when you say to a girl, oh you got
Right
when
you
say
to
a
girl
oh
you
got
you got your PhD, but when are you
you
got
your
PhD
but
when
are
you
getting married?
getting
married
Right, which is a common phrase we we
Right
which
is
a
common
phrase
we
we
hear all the time. When raising a child
hear
all
the
time
When
raising
a
child
and saying I'm going to raise a feminist,
and
saying
I'm
going
to
raise
a
feminist
for many people the immediate
for
many
people
the
immediate
connotation that will come to their mind
connotation
that
will
come
to
their
mind
is that means you're raising a daughter,
is
that
means
you're
raising
a
daughter
Yeah, yeah but from reading your work a
Yeah
yeah
but
from
reading
your
work
a
lot of the work has to be done by men.
lot
of
the
work
has
to
be
done
by
men
Men need to participate. Why is that so
Men
need
to
participate
Why
is
that
so
important? Because men have to be on
important
Because
men
have
to
be
on
board. I think you can change women all
board
I
think
you
can
change
women
all
you want, if you don't change men nothing
you
want
if
you
don't
change
men
nothing
changes because we share the world, right?
changes
because
we
share
the
world
right
It's men and women and I also think
It's
men
and
women
and
I
also
think
sadly that we live in a world where men
sadly
that
we
live
in
a
world
where
men
are more likely to listen to men.
are
more
likely
to
listen
to
men
Oh. It's true.
Oh
It's
true
Wow. You don't think so? So then how do
Wow
You
don't
think
so
So
then
how
do
you convince the first man?
you
convince
the
first
man
Um I think some men have already been
Um
I
think
some
men
have
already
been
convinced. I think people like Barack
convinced
I
think
people
like
Barack
Obama. Right. For example is a very good role
Obama
Right
For
example
is
a
very
good
role
model because he's feminist and he's
model
because
he's
feminist
and
he's
cool right so so he's actually a good..
cool
right
so
so
he's
actually
a
good
and we need more men like that to speak up.
and
we
need
more
men
like
that
to
speak
up
I think men need to speak up. Men need
I
think
men
need
to
speak
up
Men
need
to be on board. Men need to not think of
to
be
on
board
Men
need
to
not
think
of
feminism as something to sort of
feminism
as
something
to
sort
of
um something that's attacking them. Right.
um
something
that's
attacking
them
Right
I think some men think that they need
I
think
some
men
think
that
they
need
to understand that feminism is something
to
understand
that
feminism
is
something
that's good for everyone because really
that's
good
for
everyone
because
really
when all of us are released from gender
when
all
of
us
are
released
from
gender
roles we're all better off right. Right.
roles
we're
all
better
off
right
Right
And in the end it's about Justice. Don't
And
in
the
end
it's
about
Justice
Don't
we want to live in a just world.
we
want
to
live
in
a
just
world
So there's some men who've been
So
there's
some
men
who've
been
convinced more men need to be. Um Trevor
convinced
more
men
need
to
be
Um
Trevor
you should,
you
should
get cracking!
get
cracking
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