Watch and Learn - Young people could lose benefits if they refuse to try new work schemes, minister says

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Pat McFen, the prime minister is meeting

Pat McFen the prime minister is meeting

other European leaders and Mr. Zalinski

other European leaders and Mr Zalinski

tomorrow. Um, is he going to urge them

tomorrow Um is he going to urge them

to confront Mr. Trump over the American

to confront Mr Trump over the American

plan to leave chunks of Ukraine in

Russian hands?

Russian hands

>> The principle behind the talks will be

for Ukraine to be able to decide its own

future. Uh, and this is a really pivotal

future Uh and this is a really pivotal

moment now. Everybody wants the war to

moment now Everybody wants the war to

come to an end. uh but they want it to

come to an end uh but they want it to

come to an end in a way that gives

Ukraine that freedom of choice in the

future. So that means uh a just end to

future So that means uh a just end to

the war but also security guarantees for

uh Ukraine in the future and not a

completely toothless organization which

is unable to decide its future. And I

is unable to decide its future And I

think that will be at the heart of the

discussions tomorrow. And President

discussions tomorrow And President

Silinski knows that he has the strong

solidarity of the United Kingdom and

indeed of the leaders of France and

Germany who will also be at the meeting

tomorrow.

tomorrow

>> Well, there's there's obviously going to

>> Well there's there's obviously going to

be conversation. They'll reach some

be conversation They'll reach some

conclusion and uh on past experience,

conclusion and uh on past experience

it'll be Mr. uh Sakir who gets to make

it'll be Mr uh Sakir who gets to make

the first phone call to the White House

because they think of him as a Trump

whisperer. And he just going to is he

whisperer And he just going to is he

going to be able to say to Mr. Trump,

going to be able to say to Mr Trump

look, the 28 point proposal you make

look the 28 point proposal you make

really isn't what the Ukrainians want.

really isn't what the Ukrainians want

You need to back off this. I think that

You need to back off this I think that

28 point proposal has evolved since uh

it was first presented and the European

leaders have played a role in that as of

course has the Ukrainian leadership

itself. So there are a lot of points to

itself So there are a lot of points to

be discussed but the principle will be

the same which is to let Ukraine decide

its own future here uh and not to reward

Russian aggression uh both in terms of

the end state on the battlefield but

perhaps even more importantly in terms

of Russia's ability to dictate Ukraine's

future.

future

>> All right, let's let's talk about your

>> All right let's let's talk about your

own territory. You're promising this

own territory You're promising this

morning that nearly a million young

people on universal credit will benefit

from training or work under the youth

guarantee scheme. Does that mean that if

guarantee scheme Does that mean that if

they don't take up the offer or as you

put it in the press release engage with

the scheme that their benefits under

universal credit will be withdrawn?

universal credit will be withdrawn

>> Yeah, they could be. Uh we see this as a

>> Yeah they could be Uh we see this as a

both an offer and an obligation. Uh I

both an offer and an obligation Uh I

you know I look at a lot of slides in

the department of work and pensions and

some of the slides that have struck me

most in the few months that I've been in

there have been the ones showing the

rising number of young people not in

education employment or training not for

the last year or six months but for the

last four years or so that's when it

really started to

>> uh rise but four years ago

>> postco

>> it was about 2/3 of a million. It's now

>> it was about 2/3 of a million It's now

about a million. So, it's gone up very

about a million So it's gone up very

significantly since then. It's an

significantly since then It's an

international problem too. Uh I was

international problem too Uh I was

speaking to G7 employment ministers the

other day, all talking about the same

other day all talking about the same

issue. And the idea behind the youth

issue And the idea behind the youth

guarantee proposals that we are

announcing today and more to say

tomorrow is to offer those young people

a better future. And I think this should

a better future And I think this should

be a labor cause uh because it's an

issue uh not just of unemployment but of

inequality too. These numbers are worse

inequality too These numbers are worse

in the poorest parts of the country.

in the poorest parts of the country

>> Why why do you think that happened?

>> Why why do you think that happened

>> Why did the

>> that rise in uh young number of young

people uh not in employment or training

or education?

or education

>> Look, I think uh there's probably a

>> Look I think uh there's probably a

number of reasons. Some of this because

number of reasons Some of this because

it's international leads to leads me to

think there are some deep-seated labor

market issues uh going on which don't

just apply to the UK but apply

internationally too. uh there may be

internationally too uh there may be

some postcoid effects here but however

it happened I think we need a more

active response to it and that's why we

are offering the things in the youth

guarantee about work coach help training

opportunities and ultimately for the

long-term youth unemployed subsidized

employment itself because what I want to

see Trevor this is really important is

young people in the habit of getting up

in the morning doing the right thing

going to work that experience of that

obligation but also the sense of pride

and purpose that comes with having a

job.

job

>> It's really it's really interesting. I

>> It's really it's really interesting I

want to come on to talk about the issues

of morality and psychology in a second

but just on the specific question of the

guarantee. You said a moment ago that

guarantee You said a moment ago that

this there would be sanctions or they

could be applied for those who do not

engage and this is what the announcement

says don't engage um for a good reason.

says don't engage um for a good reason

What would be a good reason for somebody

not to engage with the offer?

not to engage with the offer

>> Well, look, you you know this is down to

>> Well look you you know this is down to

the work coach themselves. You might

the work coach themselves You might

have a family emergency on the day that

you your appointment was. There can be a

you your appointment was There can be a

good reason uh now and again, but the

good reason uh now and again but the

basic principle is we are making an

offer. The country is making an offer or

offer The country is making an offer or

the government on behalf of the country

of training, work experience,

of training work experience

ultimately a subsidized job. the option

ultimately a subsidized job the option

that we don't want people to have is

just to sit at home and not engage with

that.

that

>> So, so in essence, you're making you're

>> So so in essence you're making you're

making a pretty clear offer and it is an

offer that a young person cannot refuse.

offer that a young person cannot refuse

>> Well, there's a lot of options in it.

>> Well there's a lot of options in it

You can have training, you can have work

You can have training you can have work

experience. The point is you have to but

experience The point is you have to but

doing nothing doing nothing should not

be an option.

be an option

>> The benefits get taken away if they say

and except an extremist if they say I'm

not doing it. Can't be bothered. If

not doing it Can't be bothered If

someone just took that attitude, yes,

someone just took that attitude yes

they would then uh be subject to uh the

you know the obligations that are

already part of the system.

already part of the system

>> Okay. Well, that that's quite a big big

>> Okay Well that that's quite a big big

call. Let's talk about what the welfare

call Let's talk about what the welfare

reform more generally. Um over the time

reform more generally Um over the time

I've been doing this job, minister after

I've been doing this job minister after

minister sat in that seat insisting that

the abolition of the two child cap was

unaffordable.

unaffordable

In July last year, you whipped your MPs

In July last year you whipped your MPs

uh to prevent it being dropped. And then

uh to prevent it being dropped And then

10 days ago, you suddenly decided it was

10 days ago you suddenly decided it was

affordable after all. And it not only

affordable after all And it not only

was it affordable, but according to the

was it affordable but according to the

prime minister, it was your moral

prime minister it was your moral

mission to scrap the cap. Um, are you

mission to scrap the cap Um are you

going to apologize to the seven Labor

MPs that you kicked out of the

parliamentary party because they voted

against

uh keeping the two child cap?

uh keeping the two child cap

>> Well, let me say two things. First of

>> Well let me say two things First of

all, the manifesto that we fought the

all the manifesto that we fought the

election on said that we would reduce

child poverty. There are a number of

child poverty There are a number of

ways to do that. We set up uh a task

ways to do that We set up uh a task

force immediately after the election

that worked through all this. The

that worked through all this The

conclusions of

>> you kept telling me this way you

couldn't you couldn't afford to do it.

couldn't you couldn't afford to do it

>> Well, we had to the second thing I was

>> Well we had to the second thing I was

about to say is we did have to identify

how you pay for that and we've done that

in several ways. Uh we are making

in several ways Uh we are making

savings from cracking down on fraud and

error in the benefit system. They've

error in the benefit system They've

been scored by the OBR and the

chancellor announced an extra taxation

provision on online gambling too. And I

provision on online gambling too And I

do believe that when you make a spending

commitment, you've got to say how you're

commitment you've got to say how you're

going to pay for it. So I understand the

going to pay for it So I understand the

motivations of people who said we should

have done this earlier. They wanted it

have done this earlier They wanted it

done. But it's important if you're going

done But it's important if you're going

to run a responsible government to see

how things are paid for. Well, you know,

how things are paid for Well you know

um what uh the informed viewer is

already saying, every single chancellor

already saying every single chancellor

says we're going to crack down on waste.

says we're going to crack down on waste

Uh I think the number that you've got in

I I'd have to go to the books, but I

I I'd have to go to the books but I

think the number you've uh said this

time around is 5 billion. It has never

time around is 5 billion It has never

been reached before. And the gambling

been reached before And the gambling

tax, by the way, and the gambling tax

tax by the way and the gambling tax

isn't isn't reserved for this. You could

isn't isn't reserved for this You could

have done this at any point. We'd still

have done this at any point We'd still

have had to have said how we were going

to pay for it.

to pay for it

>> Why didn't you?

>> Why didn't you

>> Uh because we've now identified how

we're going to pay for it. And I should

we're going to pay for it And I should

say about this uh this two child limit

is an important thing to say about this.

is an important thing to say about this

It shouldn't just be seen as the

redistribution of cash. This is about

redistribution of cash This is about

the story of people's lives. Which

the story of people's lives Which

brings me back to our first

>> discussion. I want to come to that young

>> discussion I want to come to that young

people because those children who grow

up in poverty do end up doing worse at

school and having worse employment

prospects. So for my seat I don't see

prospects So for my seat I don't see

this just as the redistribution of cash

but an investment in their opportunity.

but an investment in their opportunity

>> I want to ask you about that uh

investment. You say that the two child

investment You say that the two child

cap was going to live lift 450,000

cap was going to live lift 450000

children out of poverty. Now, I can

children out of poverty Now I can

understand how that works on a

spreadsheet, but the thing is you can't

spreadsheet but the thing is you can't

know that it's going to li lift any

child out of poverty. There's a £35,000

child out of poverty There's a 35000

extra is going to a parent for the third

child now, but you've got no one no way

child now but you've got no one no way

of knowing that money is actually going

to go to a child. And the only

to go to a child And the only

assessment uh of the withdrawal of

benefits that's been done which is by

the institute for fiscal studies

actually concludes that it made no

impact at all. Now why is this the

impact at all Now why is this the

pathway to dealing with child poverty

rather than as for example

uh advanced by the former education

secretary Lord Blanced putting more

money into shore.

money into shore

>> Well you say it had no impact. child

>> Well you say it had no impact child

poverty actually rose by 900,000 between

poverty actually rose by 900000 between

2010 and 2024 and the impact

>> but we don't know it had that had

anything at all to do with the drawing

withdrawing you saying it's a

coincidence from the third I don't think

so and the impact uh of the system

that's been in place which we're now

changing was an extra hundred children a

day were going into child poverty it

wasn't static so I would push back on

the sense that it had no impact Now,

the sense that it had no impact Now

Lord Blanca I hugely admire and respect

and I think he would warmly agree with

me that a stronger offer to young people

matched by obligations was an

appropriate response to the neats issue.

appropriate response to the neats issue

Maybe not a complete response,

Maybe not a complete response

>> but he would agree that campaigning to

stop young people drifting into a life

on benefits and doing nothing is a labor

cause, a cause for increased uh

cause a cause for increased uh

equality. as well as opportunity and

equality as well as opportunity and

something we should get behind.

something we should get behind

>> All right. Well, look, I we we're short

>> All right Well look I we we're short

of time, so I want to move move on. Um

of time so I want to move move on Um

the deputy prime minister has hinted

over the last couple of days. Oh, no,

over the last couple of days Oh no

let's he hasn't hinted at all. He simply

let's he hasn't hinted at all He simply

said that other countries have benefited

in uh from being in a customs union with

the EU bracket.

the EU bracket

We would benefit too. Do you agree?

We would benefit too Do you agree

Well, we've just conducted three trade

Well we've just conducted three trade

deals this year. Uh, and that's a a

deals this year Uh and that's a a

pretty big uh difficulty if you're going

to join a customs union. And they were

to join a customs union And they were

really important with the United States,

really important with the United States

with India, uh, and with the European

with India uh and with the European

Union itself. And so, uh, where I where

Union itself And so uh where I where

>> So, he's wrong and that's not happening.

>> So he's wrong and that's not happening

I mean, just let's be clear, be clear

I mean just let's be clear be clear

about it. Uh I think the prime

about it Uh I think the prime

minister's made that pretty clear in

terms of the grand architecture of the

EU. By grand architecture I mean um the

EU By grand architecture I mean um the

single market and the customs union. But

single market and the customs union But

where um you know I do want to stress is

>> we do have a different approach to the

European Union from the last government.

European Union from the last government

We're not nationalists. Uh this Ukraine

We're not nationalists Uh this Ukraine

issue with which we began the interview

has really bought brought European

leaders together. We don't seek to blame

leaders together We don't seek to blame

the EU for everything and we do want a

closer more productive relationship

where we can take away some of those

costs and delays which are a result of

the Tory Brexit.

the Tory Brexit

>> I I I understand the mood music. I just

>> I I I understand the mood music I just

wanted to be absolutely clear that um uh

the deputy prime minister was basically

uh off track in uh what he what he said.

uh off track in uh what he what he said

Uh so we're clear. Um let's talk about

Uh so we're clear Um let's talk about

uh another issue which is on ground that

as you know I spent some time on.

as you know I spent some time on

Baroness Forkler Forner former of the

formerly chair of the equality human

rights commission accuses the government

of sitting on the guidance that reflects

the Supreme Court clarification on sex

and gender from earlier this year. Uh

and gender from earlier this year Uh

and she said it's because the government

is running scared of backbenches who

don't like uh the law. um might just get

don't like uh the law um might just get

on with it or is she right? The

on with it or is she right The

government's just trying to stall.

government's just trying to stall

>> No. Uh this is about getting it right.

>> No Uh this is about getting it right

Uh the Supreme Court has clarified the

situation, but the guidance will have to

situation but the guidance will have to

apply across a whole range of sectors

and organizations. It's important to get

and organizations It's important to get

this right because if you don't get it

right, organizations will end up in

right organizations will end up in

further legal jeopardy. So, we want to

further legal jeopardy So we want to

be clear with them. want to do it

be clear with them want to do it

properly and consult and talk to

>> but you guys have been talking about the

you've been talking about this to the

HRC for what I think as I understand it

since April and I know there've been a

lot of back and forth but um we know for

example this week your own party has

announced that the lay parties women's

conference will be open only to

biological women uh girl guiding and the

women's institute have managed to sort

themselves uh the government can't sort

itself out yet.

itself out yet

>> Well, we made our decision on women's

>> Well we made our decision on women's

conference because as a result of the

Supreme Court decision. Um we've had the

Supreme Court decision Um we've had the

draft guidance since September, I think,

draft guidance since September I think

not since April. Uh and it's important

not since April Uh and it's important

to get this right because what the

government has to do is to give guidance

not to one organization but to the whole

of society about how this Supreme Court

uh judgment is implemented. The bottom

uh judgment is implemented The bottom

line is the Supreme Court judgment will

be implemented. That will mean change

be implemented That will mean change

and the guidance will advise

organizations how they should soon.

organizations how they should soon

>> Well, I can't give you a date weeks,

>> Well I can't give you a date weeks

months. Uh, you know, we'll get it right

months Uh you know we'll get it right

rather than given an arbitrary date.

rather than given an arbitrary date

>> All right. I'm I'm reading this morning

>> All right I'm I'm reading this morning

in in uh my uh newspaper that uh the

Labour Party's biggest donor, the Unite

Labour Party's biggest donor the Unite

Union, is thinking of disaffiliation. Um

Union is thinking of disaffiliation Um

how would you cope without Unite's

millions?

millions

>> I think I read this story every few

months, usually about the same union.

months usually about the same union

>> Sharon Graham said it might be true this

time.

time

>> So maybe it's true this time. Look, I

>> So maybe it's true this time Look I

would regret it. Uh but we would survive

would regret it Uh but we would survive

and go on.

and go on

>> And and she's she's not Isn't she right

that um you're taxing her members while

you're giving a leg up to millionaires

and billionaires?

and billionaires

>> Look, I think uh this is a good

>> Look I think uh this is a good

government for working people. We've

government for working people We've

seen rises in the minimum wage. We've

seen rises in the minimum wage We've

seen help with energy bills. We've seen

seen help with energy bills We've seen

a freeze in railares in the budget.

a freeze in railares in the budget

We've seen a whole range of measures uh

that will help United's members. Uh, I

that will help United's members Uh I

think the trade union relationship is

valuable and important, but of course

valuable and important but of course

that's a decision that's up to them.

that's a decision that's up to them

>> Okay. Just by the way, speaking of

>> Okay Just by the way speaking of

members, um, I I believe that the former

members um I I believe that the former

deputy leader, uh, Angela Raina'site

deputy leader uh Angela Raina'site

member, how soon is she going to be back

member how soon is she going to be back

on the front bench? And presumably you'd

on the front bench And presumably you'd

welcome that.

welcome that

>> Uh, well, I think Angela Raino is great.

>> Uh well I think Angela Raino is great

Uh, I would welcome it, but this is a

Uh I would welcome it but this is a

decision for the prime minister. I've

decision for the prime minister I've

worked with a few prime ministers and uh

people think prime ministers are all

powerful. Actually, one of their

powerful Actually one of their

critical powers is to decide who serves

on the front bench, who serves as

on the front bench who serves as

ministers. Uh it's an important power

ministers Uh it's an important power

and it's theirs to exercise, not mine.

and it's theirs to exercise not mine

>> And I'm but I'm sure he listens to his

advisers and your advice is get her

back.

back

>> Look, I think she's an enormous talent.

>> Look I think she's an enormous talent

I'm a great admirer of Angela, but that

I'm a great admirer of Angela but that

question is up to the PM.

question is up to the PM

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